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Sep. 28th, 2010 07:10 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
esmenet
Okay, this looks like a meme that's fun and something I might actually finish:
Give me a character I'm familiar with and I'll either write you a ficlet (~100 words) or the equivalent amount of personal canon. (Academic!Zuko is totally a separate character from canon!Zuko, btw.)
Maybe this will help with the writer's block? (fma_ladyfest deadline on the eighth. Eep!)
EDIT: An explanation as to why I haven't written the aca!Zuko fic yet, in response to the question when, where and how you see him diverge from canon!Zuko?
I'm actually not sure about that yet! It's probably either a slight difference in him, when he was young, or a difference in the Fire Nation as a whole. Because I have it in my head that the Fire Nation, and parts of the now-Earth Kingdom, used to speak a very different language than the fairly unified one they do in canon, but I haven't figured out how late they would have given that up as the official language. People would still speak it for a while after it was made un-official, at home if nothing else, but even if Aang's slang was outdated it was still understandable. Which would mean either that it was made un-official more than a hundred years ago, or that people in the Fire Nation still understand a fair amount of it even if it sounds outdated and awkward. (Which might mean that Zuko and Azula learned some of it from Ursa? Or maybe Zuko was a tiny child-academic who studied it on his own?)
And of course I've no idea at all when the Earth Kingdom was unified and made to speak a single language, since it was probably a bunch of different ones for a very very long time. ^_^
So pretty much the difference between academic!Zuko and canon!zuko is all wrapped up in regional and linguistic differences in the A:TLA world and the things he learned/was taught before he got banished. Canon!Zuko, for instance, can probably compose some acceptable poems, but academic!Zuko would have learned enough classical court poetry to spot references to it in everyday speech. (Which could lead to all sorts of fun in Ba Sing Se, when he has a moment of thinking "oh, they're referencing that famous poem that compares alcohol to politics -- wait, no, crap. wrong language, wrong country. no, wait again, are they taking International Poetry at the university? Are they the kind of people who would make cross-language references about plotting against the government? Or is there an Earth Kingdom thing they're referencing here that I'm missing entirely? ARGH.")
So basically my writing of academic!Zuko is stalled by my ignorance of Asian literary traditions and linguistic differences, which are the kind of thing that I could easily spend the rest of my life researching.And it would be AWESOME. And this is why I can't really answer your question, because if I knew enough to answer it completely I could start the damn thing. XD
Give me a character I'm familiar with and I'll either write you a ficlet (~100 words) or the equivalent amount of personal canon. (Academic!Zuko is totally a separate character from canon!Zuko, btw.)
Maybe this will help with the writer's block? (fma_ladyfest deadline on the eighth. Eep!)
EDIT: An explanation as to why I haven't written the aca!Zuko fic yet, in response to the question when, where and how you see him diverge from canon!Zuko?
I'm actually not sure about that yet! It's probably either a slight difference in him, when he was young, or a difference in the Fire Nation as a whole. Because I have it in my head that the Fire Nation, and parts of the now-Earth Kingdom, used to speak a very different language than the fairly unified one they do in canon, but I haven't figured out how late they would have given that up as the official language. People would still speak it for a while after it was made un-official, at home if nothing else, but even if Aang's slang was outdated it was still understandable. Which would mean either that it was made un-official more than a hundred years ago, or that people in the Fire Nation still understand a fair amount of it even if it sounds outdated and awkward. (Which might mean that Zuko and Azula learned some of it from Ursa? Or maybe Zuko was a tiny child-academic who studied it on his own?)
And of course I've no idea at all when the Earth Kingdom was unified and made to speak a single language, since it was probably a bunch of different ones for a very very long time. ^_^
So pretty much the difference between academic!Zuko and canon!zuko is all wrapped up in regional and linguistic differences in the A:TLA world and the things he learned/was taught before he got banished. Canon!Zuko, for instance, can probably compose some acceptable poems, but academic!Zuko would have learned enough classical court poetry to spot references to it in everyday speech. (Which could lead to all sorts of fun in Ba Sing Se, when he has a moment of thinking "oh, they're referencing that famous poem that compares alcohol to politics -- wait, no, crap. wrong language, wrong country. no, wait again, are they taking International Poetry at the university? Are they the kind of people who would make cross-language references about plotting against the government? Or is there an Earth Kingdom thing they're referencing here that I'm missing entirely? ARGH.")
So basically my writing of academic!Zuko is stalled by my ignorance of Asian literary traditions and linguistic differences, which are the kind of thing that I could easily spend the rest of my life researching.
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Date: 2010-09-29 12:58 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-09-29 01:55 am (UTC)Iroh smiles to himself. His nephew cannot see it, buried as he is in books and papers and oddly helpful Dai Li supervisors, but Zuko has changed. His inner fire does not burn hot, as his sister's does, nor bright the way it used to, but it is steady now in a way none of them would have thought possible only a year ago. It seems that Ba Sing Se has been good for him.
Yes, he thinks, raising a finger to his lips in warning to Lan and Ming, with a glance at his sleeping nephew. Very good indeed.
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Date: 2010-09-29 02:54 am (UTC)*dotes to pieces over Aca-Zuko and his steady inner fire*
Also! *retrieve a resource from the Summer Linguistics Class of Doom* Here, have an online atlas for linguistics stuff: http://wals.info/ -- it's from Oxford UP, it's about as legit as these things come.
no subject
Date: 2010-09-29 02:50 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-09-29 04:42 am (UTC)I've been trying to figure out why, exactly, since I'm reluctant to pin it down to !Zuko is dumb, lol! Because clearly that isn't exactly true in canon - he's hardly brilliant (that would be Azula), but he's bright and omg focused. And although he's crashingly unimaginative for most of the series, it's apparent by the close that at least some of that (the bit that isn't due to him being a boy scout who is too noble and straight-arrow at heart to be tricksy and smart like Aang) is a result of him tamping himself down so very tightly post childhood trauma and exile - I love the little glimpse we get in Ember Island Players of drama nerd!Zuko.
So ... it's not as if canon!Zuko, as I read him (of course ymmv), couldn't be extrapolated out into a Ba Sing Se student who keeps tripping over echoes of Old Fire Nation. And I myself have spent far too much time deliberating over canon!Zuko's likely proficiency in court poetry (conclusion: inept. profoundly inept).
Not to mention, I'm also fascinated by the historical and cultural implications of the Avatar world's apparently global common language - though I think I'd like to have my cake and eat it wrt Old Fire or whatever you'd call it, with it being perhaps a little like Latin in early modern Europe, where educated people or those in particular professions would know it and highly educated people would speak some version of it - with perhaps even an equivalent of medieval Church Latin, legalese!Latin, etc, omg so fun.
But ... I am so totally not a linguist, and so haven't thought particularly deeply about this! And if I did I would obv feel obliged to ground it fairly securely in Asian literary and linguistic history, as you say, and these are things I'm deeply ignorant about.
Which is to say, I'm fascinated by all this world building-y stuff. But academic!Zuko, man... I guess that even allowing for the Zuko who disapproves of inferior versions of Love Amongst the Dragons being much more to the fore than in canon ... I just can't see the kind of historical consciousness and willingness to riffle through options in the researchy way that you describe above - 'crap, wrong language' - coming that easily to him? Or, at least, not without radically changing the way he reacted to stuff long before reaching Ba Sing Se? Which is to say, yeah, AU and a half before you even get to the culture building.
And ... I'm still not entirely sure why aca!Zuko pings my O__O radar more than other crazy ATLA AUs I've come across. Personal taste, I guess? *throws up hands.* (Though, talking of personal taste, I do totally share your reaction to Jet, as per one of your ealier ATLA posts - yeeech).
Oh, man, sorry! I feel as though I've popped up on your journal and been a spigot of negativity. I would love to see you do aca!Zuko - it just hurts my brain! And this has been incubating since I first saw your atla stuff (um, somehow?) a while ago, so this whole tl;dr isn't as spur of the moment as it may appear.
Um. If you can face it after wading through all of the above, Azula would totally be my meme character. From whatever universe!
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Date: 2010-09-29 01:50 pm (UTC)Hmm. I wonder if academic!Zuko's existence (or at least personality) isn't due to my desire for the Fire Nation court to be more like this. Zuko wouldn't have to pack himself into a little box anywhere near so tightly as Mai, but I've always thought the Fire Nation court should be the kind of place where little things like poetry and music and references to them matter, where a careless line from a poem that speaks of the beauty of the Water Tribe could lose you the Fire Lord's favour. Where Zuko might only need to speak against the war in the presence of a friend one too many times to be declared unfit for succession.
And haha, wow, it looks like academic!Zuko may be way darker than I was thinking at first. (Although that would not prevent me from writing WACKY GRAD STUDENT ANTICS into it. Not at all.)
(I can't decide if canon!Zuko would be okay-ish at poetry forms but completely fail at metaphors, or if he was so terrible at poetry all-around that his tutors just gave up and started putting bets on his posthumous title being Fire Lord Zuko The Legendary Bad Poet.)
I am torn between Old Fire being a Latin-ish language for scholars and it being the language you maybe speak at home with your kids, but you and your kids speak Modern Earth Kingdom everywhere else because, you know, everybody speaks MEK nowadays and Old Fire just sounds so backwards even if it's the language your mother spoke to you when you were little and the one you always heard from your grandfather. Although I guess I could see it being the second one and then becoming the first? Especially if Modern Earth Kingdom was first used for trade, then for politics, and finally in schools when the Fire Nation started having lots of contact with the Earth Kingdom.
I really really wonder how everybody started speaking the same language, though. How come the Southern Water Tribe speaks the same as the Northern Water Tribe speaks the same as the Fire Nation speaks the same as the entire Earth Kingdom? Even in China, for a long time you couldn't understand somebody from the next province over unless you were writing rather than talking. Maybe it has something to do with the Air Nomads and their flying bison of speediness, idk.
Now I'm wondering if I could even let canon go mostly the same way up until mid-season two, or if everything would happen completely differently from the ground up. *g*
But academic!Zuko, man... I guess that even allowing for the Zuko who disapproves of inferior versions of Love Amongst the Dragons being much more to the fore than in canon ... I just can't see the kind of historical consciousness and willingness to riffle through options in the researchy way that you describe above - 'crap, wrong language' - coming that easily to him?
Ah, see, I think this would be totally in character for season three!Zuko. :D Except he would probably start responding to their conversation the same way he would a conversation about the same thing with someone at home and wouldn't even think to do the 'waitasec, wrong country! wrong social mores!' until halfway through a sentence (which, for academic!Zuko, would totally be referencing an Old Fire poem about how discussing rebellion in public is a bad idea, guys, let's move this inside, but for canon!Zuko would probably be something related to the navy. The navy the Earth Kingdom does not have. Oops).
Basically this fabulously tl;dr comment is making me think harder about stuff and be even more tl;dr myself, which are VERY GOOD THINGS. |D (And oh Jet. The writers did such a good job on him, which is to say he creeps me out liek whoa. Also I think I'm about to hit the comment length limit, so I'll save Azula for later.)
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Date: 2010-09-29 05:55 pm (UTC)Ahahahaha oh man, I have used that exact same Rawles fic in pretty much the exact same way, as a 'here is my starting point for the Fire Nation' shortcut in a comment!
And in fact that's pretty much crystallised my own problem with academic!Zuko, in that I think a lot of the way I triangulate Zuko comes from my fondness for the idea of him as coming from precisely this kind of court but being a complete misfit, with a dangerous combination of his father's DIRE LACK OF SUBTLETY and his own hapless sincerity. Which of course makes his prospects on gaining the throne rather grim, even if you assume Mai has the patience and experience to guard his flank effectively when it comes to courtly machinations.
But anyway! I can certainly get behind the idea of a young aca!Zuko being equally ill at ease but able to read the court in rather different ways - and wow, how fascinating if reading one too many ancient epics from a time of peace was the thing which led to him finally becoming too much of an embarrassment for his father to stomach and getting kicked out to play hunt-the-Avatar. Which ... yes, darkness! Though that certainly shouldn't preclude wacky grad student antics...
Fire Lord Zuko The Legendary Bad Poet
Heh! I'm inclined to imagine that canon!Zuko would be deeply punctilious and correct when it came to forms, but a complete loser at, y'know, all the finer points. With added sappiness when he was actually putting his heart into it.
Old Fire just sounds so backwards even if it's the language your mother spoke to you when you were little and the one you always heard from your grandfather.
Oh, man, when you put it that way, the idea of Old Fire being rather literally a mother-tongue is very tempting. Not least because I enjoy the idea of Ursa, being Roku's granddaughter and, well, not a genocidal tyrant, as having passed on some sense of older, better ways to her children (or, at least, as having made the attempt). But I also like the (TOTALLY CANON, ilu ATLA) patriotic!Ursa, who laughs at the idea of Ba Sing Se burning to the ground. So the idea of her speaking Old Fire, which might perhaps still have some half-dead metaphors, Water Tribe loan words, or whatever, from the good old days, with little Zuko and Azula seems like one way to have the best of both worlds.
Although I guess I could see it being the second one and then becoming the first?
Hm, this is where I hit my ignorance as to how languages are likely to get preserved. I suppose languages like Welsh or Irish did become mostly domestic, local languages before becoming subject to a scholarly push to consolidate and preserve them? (uh, to gloss over the political complexities involved for the moment). And I suppose Old Fire could be curated in a vaguely similar way as a patriotic gesture and status-marker. But I'm not sure a language which had become noticeably backwards would accrue the kind of status Latin did as the language of the educated, let alone as a kind of lingua franca - rather the opposite, I'd guess?
Though I can see both usages developing in tandem, actually - with say the Fire Sages and Court poets hanging on to an increasingly rarified Old Fire, while grandmothers at home are still gossiping away in a version that becomes more and more of a pidgin through the decades as the younger generations become less and less fluent. But I really have no idea if that's plausible or not.
Maybe it has something to do with the Air Nomads and their flying bison of speediness, idk.
That is an AWESOME idea, because, really, a whole nation of flying nomads must have had some pretty far-reaching effects, no matter how detached they were - or tried to be - from worldly affairs. Though, yes, that would open the door to even more sweeping changes, world-building-wise...
I think this would be totally in character for season three!Zuko
Hm, I can see that, actually. And canon!Zuko would absolutely go off on a long and revealing tangent about some aphorism relating to naval warfare! I guess I'm just hung up on Ba Sing Se Zuko being way too screwed up to get his fire going steady, so to speak, without a lot of groundwork. But, um, as you can probably tell (and I'm so glad you took my spiel in the spirit in which it was intended - I was worried that nitpicking an unwritten fic would be a step too far...) I'd totally love to see academic!Zuko in action. And/or just some more on a Fire Nation court full of intricate politicking and power exerted through submission and so forth all expressed through VERSE. Yeah, that would be cool:)
no subject
Date: 2010-09-29 06:46 pm (UTC)Yes! And oh, I can imagine him hearing about the university's library and Iroh looking at him sadly and Zuko just thinking if I can keep my mouth shut this time, everything will be okay.
*thought occurs* What if the courtly expression/euphemism for 'capture' is 'bring before me'? And Zuko, being Zuko, could chase Aang all around the world with his real motive being only to get him still long enough to talk with in private. (And of course he couldn't reveal this to his crew, and might not even tell his uncle. Ooh, potentially deadly misunderstandings!.)
So the idea of her speaking Old Fire, which might perhaps still have some half-dead metaphors, Water Tribe loan words, or whatever, from the good old days, with little Zuko and Azula seems like one way to have the best of both worlds.
Yessss. And maybe they heard it from Lo and Li, or some of the servants too.
Though I can see both usages developing in tandem, actually - with say the Fire Sages and Court poets hanging on to an increasingly rarified Old Fire, while grandmothers at home are still gossiping away in a version that becomes more and more of a pidgin through the decades as the younger generations become less and less fluent. But I really have no idea if that's plausible or not.
Sounds fairly plausible to me -- although I was thinking of Old Fire not being backwards as much as out of fashion. Like, in Japan, for a long time Chinese poetry was considered artistically to be the hot shit and Japanese poetry was just, you know, the stuff you wrote to tell your lovers you couldn't see them this week. If Modern Earth Kingdom or w/e was considered the artistic language, and the business language, and the political language, then Old Fire kind of retires to the backstage even if you're speaking it to your children at home. And then I could see young merchants' kids and nobles learning Old Fire poetry so they could make references the foreigners wouldn't get, which would lead to both the language and the works written in it becoming popular again.
Yeah, the nomads must have had a pretty heavy affect on things. I don't know what, though, unless Modern Earth Kingdom is actually derived from/is in fact Air Nomad, which would go pretty far towards explaining why everybody speaks it. Hmmm, this bears further thought.
I was worried that nitpicking an unwritten fic would be a step too far...
Quite the opposite! If I try and world build on my own I tend to come up with things that just don't work at all. Discussion helps a lot. :D (The only downside is that now I really *do* have to locate and study up on a bunch of Asian sayings and idioms and poetry. Which wouldn't be a downside at all if I knew where to start looking for ones that weren't about either romance or nature. /o\)
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Date: 2010-09-29 10:44 pm (UTC)Interesting... Would this be a mixture of wilful misapprehension and hopeful interpretation of his instructions on Zuko's part? And given that this would really absolve Zuko of a lot of his canon culpability and jerkiness (or, well, at least some of the latter), I could see it playing into him being a lot more functional by the time he and Iroh hit Ba Sing Se.
Plus, of course Aang's take on all this bears further investigation - being from the time of peace tm, he might actually have a good chance of understanding where Zuko is coming from both culturally and linguistically, assuming a Zuko steeped in ye olde texts - and that they ever got a chance to sit down and talk minus fireballs and explosions, of course.
I was thinking of Old Fire not being backwards as much as out of fashion. Like, in Japan, for a long time Chinese poetry was considered artistically to be the hot shit and Japanese poetry was just, you know, the stuff you wrote to tell your lovers you couldn't see them this week.
*Slaps forehead* - of course, the role of Chinese literature and language in Japan is a really obvious place to start. And particularly interesting wrt to Ursa, for instance, thinking of Heian court ladies like Ono no Komachi et al writing their classics in the vernacular. Actually, they'd be a great place to begin in general, I guess, for obvious reasons of awesomeness but also because as far as I know (NOT FAR - must... read... Tale of Genji...) they could write as they did not only because of the high premium Heian high society placed on aesthetics but also because they were relatively unconstrained, as court ladies go. Which, much as I appreciate the Reign Within dynamic, might help make sense of what looked to be a fair degree of gender equality within the canon Fire Nation.
And, yes, under the art/business/politics model MEK would be pretty all encompassing (though what about religion?) - and I do enjoy the thought of Old Fire being something that, say, canny merchants from the home isles might chatter away in while provincials from the Earth Kingdom colonies gnash their teeth in frustration, or which Iroh might use on ship to correct Zuko within the hearing of crew members without shaming him.
unless Modern Earth Kingdom is actually derived from/is in fact Air Nomad
Yeah, that's fascinating. But ... a lot to deal with (last remnants of an ancient Air Empire??!). Though, returning to Aang specifically, I rather like the idea of him having been forced to study some of the same dusty old classics as aca!Zuko sought out - after all, in canon the monks do seem to have put their Avatar-in-waiting through some fairly intensive world-touring, which might have been preparation for his role as much as nomad business as usual. So a basic (and reluctant!) grounding in the classics also seems possible.
Discussion helps a lot.
Oh good! I'm completely new to this whole fandom n' fic writing thing (YES, I OWE MY FIRST FANDOM TO A TINY GLOWING MONK) so I don't exactly have much experience using canon as a sandbox to play around in. But, well, it is so fun. And now I really really would like to read some iteration of aca!Zuko. Y'know, assuming it turns out to be doable. Which, yeah - I wish I could provide awesome and helpful ideas for places to start. But ... I can't think of anything that isn't hugely obvious. Sigh. But, uh, good luck!
no subject
Date: 2010-09-29 11:46 pm (UTC)Aang and Kuzon probably hung out and made modern (read: classical, for Zuko) poetry jokes for hours on end. I can see Aang hearing Zuko say something that sounds a little odd to modern, MEK-speaking ears, and going "Did you just just reference the poem I think you just referenced? About the princess and the lady general and penguin-sledding for international co-operation? Because that's my favourite one." (And Zuko automatically replying with "Oh yeah? Well, gently drifting pine needles on a late winter's night," to which Aang responds "NEWLY OPENED PLUM BLOSSOMS IN EARLY SPRING, let's do this tentative yet hopeful alliance!")
. . . the more I plot this out, the less likely it looks that Zuko will ever actually get to go to Ba Sing Se. >.> Unless Mai takes over the Fire Nation or something. Which would be really cool.
thinking of Heian court ladies like Ono no Komachi et al writing their classics in the vernacular. Actually, they'd be a great place to begin in general, I guess, for obvious reasons of awesomeness but also because as far as I know (NOT FAR - must... read... Tale of Genji...) they could write as they did not only because of the high premium Heian high society placed on aesthetics but also because they were relatively unconstrained, as court ladies go. Which, much as I appreciate the Reign Within dynamic, might help make sense of what looked to be a fair degree of gender equality within the canon Fire Nation.
Haha, oh Tale of Genji. I'm still 1/4th along, in exactly the same place I was a year ago. (I love it! It's just, well. You know.) And the Fire Nation does seem to have a surprising amount of gender equality, compared to the other nations. Even leaving aside Zuko's very powerful female relatives (I'm including Mai and Ty Lee in this, because Azula pretty much adopted them, even if it was for reasons of having personally loyal bodyguards) we have some evidence of women in the Fire Nation army. (I think it was in the Painted Lady episode?) Also, Jun is maybe from the colonies.
There aren't actually a lot of powerful women outside the Fire Nation + Kyoshi Island, come to think of it. :| (The deaf university student friend you are planning to write for Zuko does not count, self.)
(though what about religion?)
Ooh, nice one! I can see the Fire Sages using it most of the time, and maybe it's in use when talking to/about spirits or the Spirit World. It's the common tongue rather than the artful one, so naming them in it doesn't give them the power of highly valued words, but it's still respectful? (Note to self: research Asian spirits & demons. In at least moderate detail.)
It really is fun! And you're wonderful to talk to. :D
no subject
Date: 2010-09-30 07:38 am (UTC)Definitely a little bit wilful, I think, given that this Zuko’s got the chops to actively wish the war would end asap. And of course Iroh would be nodding along from the sidelines – though, incidentally, I can see him being a bit less to the fore in this world, at least when it comes to aca!Zuko, because this Zuko doesn’t need him quite as much, since he has his own area of expertise which he knows he’s good at, or at least that it’s something revealing and interesting above and beyond pleasing his dad and capturing the Avatar. Although I guess you could tilt Iroh in a more scholarly direction as well pretty easily, if you wanted him to be a more involved guiding hand for Zuko – which, OMG, the idea of Zuko capping one of Iroh’s proverbs just popped into my head. For some reason I find that unreasonably delightful. And also surreal. Anyway! That’s a fascinating possibility, for sure – and an instance of Ozai, rather than Zuko, failing at court!speak.
Though ... as you sorta go on to say, this does pretty much redeem Zuko, or at least put him on the path to recognising the need for peace and balance, more or less from the get-go. Which dilutes the need for his Earth Kingdom trek and his table-waiting stint in Ba Sing Se. But, then:
Aang hearing Zuko say something that sounds a little odd to modern, MEK-speaking ears, and going "Did you just just reference the poem I think you just referenced? About the princess and the lady general and penguin-sledding for international co-operation? Because that's my favourite one." (And Zuko automatically replying with "Oh yeah? Well, gently drifting pine needles on a late winter's night," to which Aang responds "NEWLY OPENED PLUM BLOSSOMS IN EARLY SPRING, let's do this tentative yet hopeful alliance!")
... ok, that was QUOTED IN ITS ENTIRETY, as they say, FOR THE WIN. That is just such a charming (and plausible!) scenario. I can’t decide whether it would be improved or not by the addition of Azula, examining her nails nearby while her guards immobilise Aang and Zuko or Ty Lee Vulcan-punches them, and not getting in the least why Zuzu and the Avatar are babbling about blossom to each other. Not that Azula wouldn’t know the appropriate texts and their implications back to front, I guess. But she might miss, I don’t know, a more emotive connection that Aang and Zuko would see without a problem? Or simply fail to believe that anyone could be soppy enough to base an alliance, let alone a friendship, on poetry.
(Heh. Genji: gulp).
There aren't actually a lot of powerful women outside the Fire Nation + Kyoshi Island, come to think of it. :| (The deaf university student friend you are planning to write for Zuko does not count, self.)
Yeah – and it kinda gets tangled up on a meta level with their failure to have powerful female adult mentors in general (who aren’t traumatized ex-prisoners, that is). I mean, I buy the idea that the Fire Nation is by far the most progressive, gender-wise (head canon: they’ve been drafting all benders of either sex for several generations, and probably all young people full stop in recent decades – quite apart from anything else, that’s got to have an effect), but that doesn’t mean there couldn’t have been important women elsewhere, and fewer missing mums in general. Ah well, at least they had Kyoshi (island and Avatar both). And, wow, a deaf friend for aca!Zuko sounds interesting – a lot of potential for her to pick up on, say, tell-tale foreigner!body-language cues which hearing people might miss.
It's the common tongue rather than the artful one, so naming them in it doesn't give them the power of highly valued words, but it's still respectful?
Oh, wow, I love the idea of an ‘artful tongue’ for the really spiritually active stuff, and it makes complete sense that Old Fire would get co-opted as another layer of formality between the Sages and the spirits – also suggestive, perhaps, of the Fire Nation loosing its link with the spirit world as it descends into warmongering and genocide?
And Asian spirits, so fascinating – though my knowledge of them comes largely from Miyazaki, heh. And actually, I could see aca!Zuko perhaps cultivating a much closer, more Fire Sage-ly relationship with the Spirit World – though how he’d get along with Earth Kingdom spirits is I guess a moot point. I could almost see him going off on some Spirit World journey of vital import to, um, something, while all kinds of elaborate political machinations/Avatar-mandated smackdowns take place in the Fire Nation (and, hey, Mai could totally come out on top – that would be awesome!). Aca!Zuko could emerge into the here and now at some critical moment but end up, perhaps, actually refusing the throne and going off to be all learned and Fire Sage-ish... Hm.
Yep, fun! And you’re not so bad yourself :) I’m glad I gave into my urge to moan at length about my issues with aca!Zuko, even if I have kinda derailed your meme – oops!
no subject
Date: 2010-09-30 08:36 am (UTC)YES. That would be positively fabulous.
And I think that it wouldn't be so much Ozai failing at courtspeak as Zuko being, in all things except enthusiasm about war, very determined to be A Good Son and bring honour on his family and help his country and all that jazz -- so of course Ozai wouldn't see the need to state things baldly. He can afford to be a little circumspect in public (and it would be public, an announcement like that would have to be), even if his son seems a bit too concerned about other people's pain sometimes.
I'm so glad you like the poetry scene! Because I would totally end up writing all of their conversations to consist entirely of lines from/references to poetry, and all the other characters would be rolling their eyes and going "You two are such gigantic dorks." (Of course, Azula would phrase it more like "You know, Zuzu, an interest in poetry is commendable, but you take it a little too far." And she would totally sit down and dissect their conversation later when they couldn't watch. Though Zuko and Aang might end up referencing Water Tribe epics or something that she wouldn't be familiar with, but the metaphors employed just so happen to be similar to those in a Fire Nation tanka that means something completely different.)
And yes, Zuko's deaf friend catches him out right away but doesn't think anything of it, because Ba Sing Se is full of people from just about everywhere and the Dai Li don't care where you're from so long as you keep your head down. Besides, she would consider it rude to mention that sort of thing unless he was about to get himself caught. ;)
Now that I think of it, I could easily see Mai and aca!Zuko having some sort of thing where he can spend the rest of his life wandering around and being a traveling scholar as much as he wants just so long as he writes everything down and sends it to her, and she will use it for the good of the country and also her own personal amusement. (Mai will posthumously be known as Lady Mai the Enlightened, and while there will be many records of her pet wandering scholar-monk, the official account will only have a single offhanded mention of him being an eldest son of the old regime.)
This may once have been a meme, but now it is both a meme and a giant sprawling discussion of worldbuilding awesome. \o/
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Date: 2010-09-30 06:31 pm (UTC)Ah, that makes a lot more sense. And of course there must have been massive amounts of spin-doctoring going on all around, y’know, the banishment of the crown prince. Not to mention around the Agni Kai – someone pointed out to me a while ago that in any vaguely Confucian set-up, father is to son as ruler is to people, which I hadn’t really articulated for myself before, and ... ouch. And of course hunting down the Avatar might still be a topic which would need careful handling.
I so totally like the poetry scene! And of course all sorts of Renga-type forms are explicitly designed to link up: Aang and Zuko would just be, like, obeying the imperatives of traditional Fire Nation forms! And I really enjoy the idea of Azula being a bit fuzzy on barbarian poetry, and trying to, say, slot a Water Tribe metaphor about whale-roads or whatever into a Fire Nation mould where it seems as though it might be a really oblique way of talking about distance and thus also political evasiveness and/or erotic frigidity or something. So she’s pondering away and Mai is just, like, no Azula really they were talking about the sea. And Ty Lee bobs up and nods, because that just makes sense to her. And Azula is all *glares daggers.* ... And then naturally uses the info to great effect.
Besides, she would consider it rude to mention that sort of thing unless he was about to get himself caught. ;)
She sounds like a sensible girl! The sort of friend that even aca!Zuko probably needs really badly.
Mai and aca!Zuko having some sort of thing where he can spend the rest of his life wandering around and being a traveling scholar as much as he wants just so long as he writes everything down and sends it to her, and she will use it for the good of the country and also her own personal amusement.
Ahahaha, oh wow that could be completely golden. I love the idea of Mai unrolling some tightly scribbled screed and having to skim through about fifty columns on funeral customs in the Northern Water Tribe and how this relates to their traditional throat-singing before she reaches the juicy info on export duties and disarmament progress and local cuisine (disappointing, that last one) that she’s been waiting for! And, oh man, the idea of Zuko going down in history as a wandering scholar-sage (nephew to an eccentric tea-shop owner, the probable author of the notorious ‘Red Peony’ series of erotic novellas), is priceless. As also is Fire Lord Mai (assuming that’s the default title for the actual ruler, as per Azula). Though, man, that would need quite a lot of fiddling with Mai herself (she’d need a lot more personal ambition, for one), not to mention a giant-size shake-up of the Fire Nation. Excitement! And what would she do for heirs, one wonders? I mean, to be serious, I guess reality would set in and she’d need to make an extremely unexceptionable political match, but I like the idea of the next Fire Lord having rather fuzzy official parentage and a childhood full of being whisked off on a flying bison to hike around the Earth Kingdom for a couple of weeks with a grouchy–but-sweet scholar and perhaps an even grouchier Greatest Earthbender of All Time or other partners in crime...
Heh, poor, long lost meme... IT GOT BULLDOZERED BY POETRY, SUCH IS LIFE.
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Date: 2010-09-30 08:07 pm (UTC)And as you say, the whole 'capturing the Avatar' bit might be different -- perhaps the Avatar is portrayed as the relic of an outmoded belief system. Especially if the Avatar's word is law -- Ozai would be sure to remind everyone that a ruler such as himself is bound by custom and the favour of his fellow nobles (and perhaps some kind of spiritual tie to the Fire Nation?), while the Avatar stands alone, beholden to no-one and nothing. Such a dangerous criminal, always stirring up unrest and rebellion against the gentle guiding hand of the Fire Nation, must surely be stopped.
I love your thoughts on Azula and barbarian poetry. :D
I don't know if Mai would need much personal ambition at all, actually. If and when something happened to Ozai and Azula, the court would be a hot mess of power-grabs and backstabbing and some people wanting to recall Prince Zuko from exile (with others pointing out that yeah, we don't actually know where he is, and you just want a puppet king anyway, I can tell) and lots of other people trying to grab the throne for themselves, and I could see Mai just deciding to fix everything herself after it stopped being funny. And I can also see her 'borrowing' the Fire Lord's seal in the interim to issue edicts that, while they may not exactly be legal, fix things well enough so nobody cares. (Also! I vaguely remember hearing that Fire Lord was once upon a time just the title of the head Fire Sage, though it somehow became a hereditary position. Mai could totally be from some important Fire Sage's family line, couldn't she?)
Mai would totally get married to the Earth King or something, and the courtiers would be all D: and she would go "What? It's a politically expedient match." And if there were any actual problems with the succession, she would just make Zuko and Aang help her appoint someone. (Kuei would have to work out his succession problems on his own, at least officially.)
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Date: 2010-10-01 04:21 pm (UTC)Good point! (heh, can you tell that my instinct is always to cling to canon, by my fingernails if need be!). And in fact I seem to remember reading somewhere that going off to search for the Avatar was a traditional rite of passage for Fire Nation royals (or, well, since Sozin, I guess). So Ozai could absolutely spin it as a great opportunity and a coming-of-age duty for his son, even if it would be entirely evident to those in the know that he was essentially shoving Zuko unceremoniously offstage. And, yes, a scar-less Zuko would require a lot less suspension of disbelief when it comes to him being inconspicuous and unidentified. Though, mind you, it did seem to work quite well in terms establishing his bona fides as a victim of the Fire Nation, so there’d be that to work round...
And as you say, given that his father BURNING HALF HIS FACE OFF didn’t really bring it home to Zuko that he was the ugly duckling, everything remaining a matter of whispering campaigns and nuance might just serve to tangle up the family relationships even further.
perhaps the Avatar is portrayed as the relic of an outmoded belief system
I love this idea – and as you say it would absolutely tie in with a quasi-theocratic Fire Nation, with the Fire Lords claiming some special link to ‘the superior element’ – I’m fond of the idea of them claiming descent from some Fire spirit or what have you, myself. Though I’ve also come across some mention of the position of Fire Lord starting off as just head Fire Sage (which is so suggestive for Fire Nation history, oh man), which vaguely works against my spirit-descent idea, but would work really well in terms of giving Mai a pretext to claim the throne – she could say she was returning the position of Fire Lord to its pious roots (while, naturally, hanging on to all the power it had accumulated in the meantime...).
And speaking of Mai, yes, you do have a point that it might be EXASPERATION with drawn-out, torturous politicking in the wake of Ozai’s downfall which would see going ‘right, enough of this’ and seizing the reins. Especially as she seems very much a creature of power and privilege despite herself, and would I imagine want to ensure she had a place near the top of the Fire Nation court carved out for her – and if being Fire Lord was the only way to ensure that, well, I can see her stepping up. And she’d be hella good at delegating, too, I imagine – quite unlike Zuko. And I can entirely see her just making off with the Fire Lord’s seal until such a time it became officially hers!
Heh! Poor Earth King, I feel that would be a marriage of convenience and a half! But also quite plausible, though I can see there being massive internal opposition – shades of Mary Tudor getting hitched to Philip, though of course Mai would be actually politically astute, which might make all the difference. And in terms of succession, I guess, actually, that once the nobles had sucked it up and accepted a non-bending woman on the throne (I mean, quite apart from the thorny question of Fire Nation gender equality, it’s canon that the last five or so Fire Lords have been men, going by the giant wall-o-Fire Lords in the palace), they might just be willing to be grateful for having an heir at all, full stop.
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Date: 2010-10-01 06:28 pm (UTC)Which would work really well for Mai if she had some spiritual training/Fire Sage ancestry herself, and therefore the authority to hold ceremonies and such in the royal palace. (I can see her sending Zuko a letter saying "You know, you could un-disown yourself and come help me with this," and his reply being along the lines of "Sorry, I'm trying to get Wan Shi Tong to let me into his library! But here are a bunch of spirit-binding ceremonies in case you need them.") And she would be absolutely beautiful at delegating, though she might have to reform the government a bit first.
I wonder if the 'only benders can be Fire Lord' thing has its origins in requirements for Fire Sages? Like, spirits are tricky and can mess with your weapons, but you can always use your spiritual energy to set them on fire. Or maybe it's just that firebenders are blessed by Agni and have extra protection or something.
There would be a lot of opposition, I think. A lot of Earth Kingdom & Water Tribe people accusing (or thinking it, rather) Mai of forcing extra concessions out of the Earth King on top of everything the Fire Nation got out of the war (which was mostly lots of dead soldiers and angry citizens, really) or of trying to conquer the Earth Kingdom by having her heirs rule it. On the other hand, Mai would probably teach Kuei how the real world actually works and how to handle this whole 'politics' thing, and if they could get through the first couple of years everything would probably work out okay. And the Fire Nation might be happy just to have some stability again.
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Date: 2010-10-01 10:25 pm (UTC)And the prospect of someone as down-to-earth as Mai holding elaborate ceremonies, or even negotiating with spirits, is delicious! And, heh, aca!Zuko persuading Wan Shi Tong to give him library access, so to speak, is an awesome idea in and of itself.
I suspect the Fire Lord having to be a bender (though, mind you, I think that’s only canon by implication) is very much a result of their Fire Sage-y roots. Though I imagine it would be less a matter of being able to throw fire at spirits (given that bending doesn’t even work in the Spirit World – it seems like an iffy weapon to use against them even in this one) and much more a result of benders being seen as blessed by Agni or what have you – which of course could easily shade into the ugliness of ‘the superior element’ propaganda we see Zhao spouting on the show.
everything the Fire Nation got out of the war (which was mostly lots of dead soldiers and angry citizens, really)
Well, plus presumably a fair amount of plunder and possibly, say, massive rice shipments from the Earth Kingdom – post-war reconstruction just seems like a giant mess for whatever Fire Lord you have attempting it, which is one reason I was reticent about seeing Mai as willing to take on the job, given that she isn’t all idealistic and dutiful in the way that Zuko is. But then, she is undeniably efficient and unwilling to take any bullshit! And, yeah, if Mai and Kuei could get through the first couple of years – and produce heirs – everything would probably simmer down. I mean, it’s not as though people would have any illusions about how ugly war could be, as you say.
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Date: 2010-10-02 12:59 am (UTC)Ooh, I like this picture. (It makes me go "omg, I would love to co-write this with you!" and "wait, I would be terrible at co-writing.")
There would be so so so many ramifications, ranging from "great, my comb's imbued with my great-grandmother's negative feelings and is causing misfortune at parties," to the spirits of past Fire Lords invading Mai's and Zuko's dreams yelling "you're doing it wrong!" to Mai needing to spend basically all the money in the treasury getting priests trained and shrines built in an effort to keep the citizens from being eaten/killed/trampled/generally messed with by hungry ghosts and denizens of the Spirit World.
Mai would probably distill ceremonies down to the minimum needed to contain, control, or placate. Some of the Fire Sages and courtiers would go nuts over her abandonment of tradition, and Mai would just be all "Look, I don't have time to sit under a waterfall for three days and find white cotton robes made of thread spun under a full moon and light fifty candles for a spirit-trap. I'm wearing clean clothes, I've got an empty box and my own weight in blessed knives. It's just a minor plague spirit, I'll be done in half an hour." Not that you might not need five hundred candles and a three-day shower and the rest of it for powerful spirits, but I have this image of Fire Sages who, the country being pretty much free of spiritual trouble for so long, only know about the really elaborate ceremonies used for great spirits and not the ones you use to keep the little ones out of your house.
I do wonder if it's a Thing for the royal family, being favoured by Agni. If one of them turned out not to be a bender, that would reflect badly on the whole house. (Thinking of that -- firebenders are blessed by Agni, waterbenders by Tui (or was it La?), but the earthbenders and airbenders don't seem to have great patron spirits. I wonder what that's about.) The Fire Sages being benders might also have something to do with how 'inner fire' works regarding spirits.
And I do wonder if one of the main reasons the Fire Nation supported Sozin wasn't for farmland. The Fire Nation is supposed to be mostly volcanoes, right? I bet there's a lot of stuff you can't grow there, and might be expensive to trade for.
I forget, did the FN royal family have a secret library? Or did they just have that one secret diary of Sozin? Because if they did, I could see copies of those books being part of the peace deal.
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Date: 2010-10-02 09:16 pm (UTC)It makes me go "omg, I would love to co-write this with you!" and "wait, I would be terrible at co-writing.")
Heh, thank you – I’m entirely flattered! And I kinda feel exactly the same – I suspect the Avatar shipping wars would have nothing on me defending my territory over a pet metaphor or something equally trivial. Though I feel vaguely guilty here – I’m getting all the fun of world building with none of the hard graft of getting stuff down on paper... Not that writing isn’t fun, of course, but the attendant frustration levels are exponentially higher in my (very limited!) experience.
Man, I love the idea of haunted artefacts (which of course Embers gets a fair bit of mileage out of) – I mean, when your ceremonial vestments have been handed down from Sozin, for instance, that’s a whole lot of negative vibes right there. Not to mention an entire lineage-worth of infighting Fire Lords clogging up the dreams of the present incumbent (assuming reincarnation is an Avatar special-feature, or that Fire Lords get some kind of dispensation from it, the better to stick around and bug their descendants). Also awesome: the idea of Mai and her blessed knives, cutting through the crap of long, elaborate Fire Sage-ly ceremonies. Because, yes, I’m sure that rituals would balloon out of all proportion to the actual necessary rites, given a dedicated class of Fire Sages who’d want to attract patronage and what have you.
Being favoured by Agni does seem a likely Thing for the royals – which would help explain why Zuko, being a fail!bender for most of canon, was such an embarrassment. And while I don’t think any of that was actually canon, it would be great to play with the idea of water and fire being akin in this way – perhaps earth is too pragmatic and air too detached for those elements to need Patron Spirits to gift them to humanity or however bending happened in the first place (spiritbending?). But yeah, there could very well be the tradition that the Royal Family is entrusted with carrying on Agni’s fire, specifically – that their inner fire is qualitatively different. And then, when the line ends (if you don’t count Mai) with no apparent ill effects - massive implications for the power of the Fire Sages.
I’m pretty sure the Earth Kingdom would have been more or less the bread basket of the Fire Nation. I mean, even assuming the Fire Nation had been largely self-sufficient once upon a time, a century of industrialisation and war – and breeding babies for war – seems likely to have left them hugely reliant on imports.
I forget, did the FN royal family have a secret library?
Well, if they didn’t, THEY SHOULD HAVE DONE. Seriously, the Fire Nation royal collection of ancient scrolls and plundered Air Nomad and Earth Kingdom artefacts is one of my most treasured pieces of head-canon! And I can absolutely see copies being pretty central to any peace treaty – and being something aca!Zuko would very much have a vested interest in. Though assuming the Earth Kingdom has invented printing, or is on the verge of it (which seems likely, given the potential uses of earthbending) I can see him lobbying rather urgently for all this stuff to get put in print asap.
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Date: 2010-10-02 09:43 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-10-02 10:45 pm (UTC)I do wonder if Mai wouldn't just end up putting all the royal ornaments in storage and making her own as necessary -- which would probably boil down to a specially-engraved topknot crown thing, and a scarf embroidered to protect against spirits.
. . . she'd probably not sleep in the official Fire Lord bedchamber, either. If they managed to invade her dreams anyway, she at least wouldn't be surrounded by all their stuff.
So yes, haunted artifacts are going to be the best thing -- except possibly for haunted places, because I've had it in my head for a long time that the Dai Li and the Earth Kingdom royal family are the embodiment of Ba Sing Se's spiritual essence. And the reason why Ba Sing Se isn't completely overwhelmed by spirits is because the Dai Li scare off the small ones and deal with the big ones. (It's also a nice explanation for why the Dai Li all have the same general face-shape. When you join, they take you up to the palace, knock you out, and stick you in a stone room for a few hours so you can commune with the city and commit to becoming one with it and stuff like that, and when you wake up you put on your uniform and are suddenly unrecognizable to anyone outside the Dai Li.)
He and Iroh were probably in Ba Sing Se or somewhere, and then he got a message from Mai saying You two, STAY HIDDEN. Your relatives have just been assassinated. DON'T COME BACK HERE YOURSELVES. We don't know who killed them, and we're too busy to find out -- if you want to help, send things and people who can deal with spirits, preferably by way of the Bei Fongs. And then there's talk of a cease-fire, and rumours that the Fire Nation troops are withdrawing.
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Date: 2010-10-02 11:41 pm (UTC)It's also a nice explanation for why the Dai Li all have the same general face-shape.
I THINK YOU MEAN A HORRIFYING EXPLANATION, which is also of course awesome. I too am very fond of the (essentially Embers-verse?) idea of the Dai Li as the spiritual immune system of Ba Sing Se. And the idea of them somehow being imprinted with some spirit-deep link to the city itself is fantastic. But ... I’m guessing you never exactly retire from the Dai Li, oh man (or perhaps if you do make it through, you still have the city in your head the whole time. Or you miss it horribly if they mindbend you back ... argh can you tell I find this totally disturbing?).
And, yep, that looks a more than plausible scenario for the final meltdown in the Fire Nation from Zuko’s pov. And I guess the Fire Nation wouldn’t spend all its time under Fire Lord Mai being plunged into mini Fimbul Winters and being otherwise subject to crazy spirit attacks – I imagine they’re considerably better off, overall, under Fire Lord Mai (heh – I love typing that!) than under aca!Zuko, even if he would act as an automatic bulwark against spirits.
And, man, if writing is the easy part ... it would be totally great if some iteration of aca!Zuko got written! Totally. I mean, not to pressure you or anything...
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Date: 2010-10-03 12:50 am (UTC)And of course the Fire Lord's palace would have been built *after* the royal line came into being, possibly quite a while after, so it could totally lack all the ward-patterns and spirit-traps that would have been standard for buildings before then. So she'd have to supervise construction of those, too.
It is pretty disturbing. And also AWESOME. You could probably retire, but I don't imagine you'd want to. They'd have to make sure you didn't spill any secrets, one way or another, and burn your uniform or something. Huh, I wonder what the Dai Li do on their days off?
There would be a lot of spirit attacks at first -- I mean, they'd have several hundred years' worth to make up for, and no one who actually knows how to deal with them -- but after everything was settled down, shrines built, war over, all that, they'd be a lot better off with Fire Lord Mai than with someone who wants to be an academic for the rest of his life. (Come to think of it, her marrying Kuei would be pretty good for the Earth Kingdom as a whole.)
Well, now that we've got Mai and Zuko and Iroh pretty much down, all I have to do is figure out what to do with everyone else. (What do Aang and Katara and Sokka do if Zuko's not chasing them around? Is he chasing them around? Why? Does he have his crew with him if he's not? What about Toph? What about Suki? Hakoda & co? Is Yue just hanging around being a princess, or is she doing something else? What about Jet and his friends? What are Teo and his dad up to? What's everybody going to do about Sozin's Comet? Someone's going to do something during the eclipse; what? When does the assassination happen, and who did it? Aaaaaaa! *hairpull*) But once enough of that's done, I think I'll write Mai and Ty Lee dealing with the assassinations and the spirits trying to eat everyone and hatching a plan to deal with it all.
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Date: 2010-10-05 03:22 pm (UTC)And yep, I guess you’re pretty much Dai Li for life. On their days off (if they had them!) wouldn’t they have to secure their uniforms in some kind of spirit-proof box before they went out to be clumsy and wistful and play pai sho with the old men of the city? Or perhaps they just socialise amongst themselves – I wonder if you could justify female Dai Li, given that I imagine scary secret police are moderately likely to select on merit. And they were founded by Kyoshi! I guess it depends on how sexist you make the Earth Kingdom. And I imagine that after a few diplomat visits to her husband Mai would make sure they let girls in if they didn’t already – as you say, she’d probably be A Good Thing for the Earth Kingdom.
And, yep, the idea of a mini-era of spirit-war, so to speak, following the war proper seems really satisfying, somehow – and of course it would give Fire Nation civilians a very real and urgent incentive to get themselves interested in the old ways, regardless of how keen they might be on true firebending.
... Speaking of which, oh man, Aang and ... everyone. *Hairpull* seems appropriate! I wonder if you could have everyone (well, minus Toph and Suki, probably) coincide at the North Pole? It just seems such a Spirit World focus, and Koh is such a gift. A creepy, creepy gift. Maybe Zuko, assuming Iroh and his wee ship as per normal, could work things out with Aang somewhere along the journey northwards and end up joining forces. And perhaps with Iroh bringing out his Dragon of the West side on behalf of the Northern Water Tribe, things might go much less smoothly for the Fire Nation invasion forces? Which might mean no dead Yue, which is an idea I’m always vaguely fond of, because I object to her storyline in principle if not in execution (that was such a great finale!). And it seems there’d be a lot of stuff you could do with a spirit-touched princess still wandering around. Though, hmm, she could also be very useful as the moon...
And, oh man, the assassination. Azula? Less laden with daddy-issues than in canon, out to claim the throne on the DOBS? Which, man, might pollute the Fire Lord’s line sufficiently that Agni basically disinherits the entire family on the strength of it? Though, hmm. That still leaves you with Azula to deal with. Problems! And I wonder if that scenario isn’t a little glib anyway...
But, yep, Mai and Ty Lee dealing with the aftermath in between fighting off spirits sounds like awesomeness!
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Date: 2010-10-05 06:12 pm (UTC)And I can definitely see Mai introducing the concept of 'promotion on merit' to the other areas of Earth Kingdom life.
Hmm, they probably would have somewhere special to keep the uniforms. Maybe they have lockers somewhere in the Palace?
true firebending
Oh man, I forgot about the Sun Warriors! Iroh would probably send them a letter or something, if they didn't already know. The question, then, is if they stay put, lend any direct help at all (would they be okay with people finding out they were still around? Or would they just send a few people with knowledge of the Ancient Ways (tm) to go out and teach firebending at the newly-built shrines/temples?) or try to take over.
I'm very tempted to put Zuko at the South Pole about when he was in canon, looking for Water Tribe sagas and information on the Avatar, but something about that just doesn't feel right. The thing is, I kind of want to skip over most or all of his time with the Gaang between meeting them and being at the North Pole. :[ Because I don't want this fic to be about Aang's story, I want it to be about Mai's and Zuko's, even if Zuko is the sort of person who would enjoy riding to the North Pole on a flying bison. So maybe he and his uncle are at the North Pole when they get there. (Which you already said, sorry.) Probably pretending to be an Earth Kingdom noble with his Uncle. And Aang would totally notice all the Fire Nation poetry he was reflexively referencing.
And I forgot about Zhao, too. >.< I could totally see him going "Spiritual chaos in the homeland? That's gotta be the moon spirit's fault, LET'S GO KILL IT and win unending fame and glory for me!" And while he probably wouldn't have gotten promoted to Admiral with Ozai dead and the homeland in chaos, he might have enough power and charisma to make a bunch of people think that launching an attack on the North Pole and possibly winning lots of military glory for their favourite possible ruler = GREAT IDEA. (It worked for the Romans, okay.) If the intention was to conquer and subjugate rather than destroy, they might not even know or care about Aang. (Then again, if the majority of the fleet was there for Aang, and Aang just grabbed a waterbending teacher and ran, I can see major major embarrassment and loss of authority for Zhao as a good three-fourths of his fleet just turns around and heads home.) And Yue could continue sticking around the North Pole being awesome, or she might decide to go off and see the world. Maybe hang around with Sokka and Katara and Aang, maybe join Zuko and Iroh on their quest to, um, be wandering sages and send useful stuff home to Mai, maybe go to the Fire Nation and use her spiritual influence a bit. (I'd love to write something where she just sneaks in and fights spirits, and Mai runs into her.)
Leaving Azula alive would create so many interesting problems, oh man. Imagine if the royal line's seal on spirits (or whatever) was broken when Ozai was killed, and Azula had to deal with it all? She might have an even worse time of it than Mai and Ty Lee by themselves, since she's never struck me as the type of person who's good at maintaining already running systems. Mai would just fix everything out of annoyance, but I could see Azula forgetting about unimportant things like spirits eating all the common folk.
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Date: 2010-10-05 07:51 pm (UTC)(And I just realized I have no idea where to start reading up on Japanese spirits. No. Idea. What. So. Ever. *hairpull again*)
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Date: 2010-10-07 12:36 am (UTC)BUT ANYWAY. Yeah, I can see the Earth Kingdom as a place where oppression is very much a matter of proprieties and mores, which would make Earth Consort Mai blandly refusing to give a damn about such things hugely powerful, I think, even if she wasn’t specifically exerting herself to level the playing field for women (not that she wouldn’t want to, but it might come lower down on the list than ‘preventing civil war in the Fire Nation’, at least at first).
And, yes, somehow I find the idea of spirit-touched uniforms really compelling? And I guess they would give plenty of fuel for WACKY GRAD STUDENT HIJINKS, with potential srs consequences and perhaps a side of disguised ninja-ing from Zuko which nearly ends very badly when he finds secret knowledge about the city nudging at the back of his mind and is distracted from IMPORTANT NINJA BUSINESS.
Much as I like the idea of the Sun Warriors coming and teaching Ancient Ways (tm) to the Fire Nation, I suspect that they would be absolutely furious with the place for breaking its alliance with the spirit world? I mean, I guess they might be glad of any return to the old ways, but given that they’re exasperated with the place anyway, to put it mildly, and not exactly given to outreach, I think a palace squabble bringing angry spirits to their doorstep (though one presumes they’d have wards, so no further) might make them pretty recalcitrant about chipping in to help the new regime. Though … somehow the idea of Ty Lee on a diplomatic mission to the Sun Warriors seems immensely appealing!
And good point on skipping to the North Pole asap – and, yes, Zuko being in disguise and getting found out through the power of poetry by Aang sounds like good times. Though I wonder if Iroh wouldn’t at least lobby pretty hard to be disguised as a tea merchant, rather than a noble! And, heh, Zhao. I feel his urge for IMMORTAL GLORY would probably come to the fore pretty strongly in a time of domestic upheaval – perhaps he himself is only a couple of steps lower down the blurry line of succession than Mai and any other major claimants, so he has an even more massive vested interest in returning swathed in military glory. And, hm, if he found Aang already gone and had to skedaddle home with his tail between his legs and half a fleet, I can see him being – well, hardly a worthy antagonist for Mai, but perhaps a useful pawn in some palace plot?
And Yue, hmm. I quite enjoy the idea of her ending up at the head of the Northern Water Tribe, with Mai ruling the Fire Nation and obviously influential in the Earth Kingdom – and, heh, maybe Katara in the South if Sokka is off having adventures and a billion boomerang-throwing babies with Suki! But, then, I also quite like the idea of her throwing it all up and going off to play sweet-but-disaffected royals with Zuko and Iroh. And your idea of her popping into the Fire Nation to do some free-lance spirit-fighting and running into Mai is awesome. So, dilemma, horns of!
And, yes, Azula, very much not the type of person who's good at maintaining already running systems. And yet much too interesting to get rid of as cavalierly as Ozai – plus, seeing her fighting spirits and failing to save peasants and such alongside Mai and Ty Lee would be so fascinating. As would of course the moment when everything turned disastrous enough for Mai to have to step in. Actually … I wonder if it couldn’t be Ty Lee and Azula heading off to see the Sun Warriors. I can see Azula agreeing on the (secret?) basis that, well, if she can’t have the throne and she isn’t going to get a chance to rival her fuddy-duddy uncle in war, she can at least match herself against a dragon.
Also, heh, Koh and Mai’s poker face: a battle with a very clear victor!
Japanese spirits, oh man. A basic library search (for, uh, ‘japanese spirits’) throws up ONE BOOK that isn’t in Japanese. WTF, library? But it does look pretty sweet if you could get your hands on it:
Pandemonium and parade : Japanese monsters and the culture of yōkai / Michael Dylan Foster (Berkeley, Calif. ; London : University of California Press, c2009)
Contents: Introduction to the weird -- Natural history of the weird : encyclopedias, spooky stories, and the bestiaries of Toriyama Sekien -- Science of the weird : inoue enryō, kokkuri, and human electricity -- Museum of the weird : modernity, minzokugaku, and the discovery of yōkai -- Media of the weird : Mizuki Shigeru and kuchi-sake-onna -- Yōkai culture : past, present, future.
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Date: 2010-10-07 02:05 am (UTC)DISGUISED NINJA-ING. YES. *loves this idea* To get into Ba Sing Se's secret libraries?
Or, on the totally comedic side, Zuko might room for a while with someone who was in the Dai Li and accidentally put on the wrong shirt in the morning. He could wander around the whole day thinking why do I feel like I should be on the rooftops right now? And why do I keep wanting to earthbend? We could even spin some srs consequences out of that! *likes this idea too*
Azula and Ty Lee would so go off to do diplomatic things with the Sun Warriors! And I could see Azula deciding to stay and persuade them to teach her The Ancient Ways (because no matter how cool the Dancing Dragon is, they've gotta have more than one set of awesome secret firebending moves) before heading out to conquer the world, and letting Mai run things at home. (Maybe they could help her work through some of her issues, as well?) Or just, y'know, fighting dragons. For fun. Oh, Azula. <3
Tea merchant. Yes! Though I suspect Iroh would say his brother was nobility, to account for Zuko not being all that great at acting.
I like the idea of Mai pinning Zhao to a wall with her knives and telling him that she'd really rather he didn't end up on top: "Things are pretty boring already, but I'm sure you'd make them worse." And then that could be the catalyst for him to call in favours from his friends and run off to the North Pole.
Yue might be able to portray the last two to her father as what Ozai ostensibly sent his son out to do: see the world, get experience, make influential friends. I just don't know which she'd end up doing -- I like both of those ideas way too much.
Ooh, that book looks excellent. *inter-library loans*
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Date: 2010-10-07 05:54 am (UTC)And yes, I think Azula + dragons could be a winning combination! Aaaand – they’d have to work out at least some of her issues, right? I mean, the dragons test you for something, and even if they aren’t exactly cuddly, I think Azula in any near-canon state would probably qualify for burninating. Or eating, or whatever. And I think an encounter with the magical rainbow fire of peace and balance might also calm her down somewhat – as well as presumably making her bending even more formidable? Plus, I feel that Ty Lee + booby-traps + grouchy/amused Sun Warriors has the potential for good times!
And good point re Zuko’s lack of acting chops. Oh Zuko.
And yes, I can absolutely see Mai sending Zhao packing, and eye rolling massively when she finds out that his brilliant plan is essentially to try and take Moscow, Napoleon style, thus freeing her up to start sorting things out in the Fire Nation.
Oh, Yue, problems! But actually, again, we could have both! A wanderjahr with Zuko and Iroh, perhaps when she realises that marrying jerk-dude isn’t for her and wouldn’t be good for her people either, followed by a trek back to the Northern Water Tribe (perhaps after she hears her father has died?), fightin’ spirits along the way.
And, yep, that book does look good, doesn’t it *crosses fingers*. And I’m sure there must be loads of stuff on Japanese folklore ... somewhere *is too lazy to do more catalogue-trawling right now...* Let me know if you find anything awesome! Plus, I guess a glance (!) across at China and Korea, fr’instance, might be useful – given the mix-n-match nature of the canon Fire Nation, it seems justified. If, y’know, daunting.
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Date: 2010-09-29 12:32 am (UTC)dunno why, I just. do.
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Date: 2010-09-29 12:58 am (UTC)He's not a bad guy. He's done some bad stuff, sure -- you can't be a freedom fighter without hurting people, and maybe he hasn't always made the best choices about when to take no prisoners and when to let things go. But he's doing the right thing, and if he can do anything, anything at all to get rid of the Fire Nation then it's worth it. It has to be, after all these years.
His mother was from the colonies. She wasn't Fire Nation, of course not, but she grew up with them and learned firebending forms from them and how to make fire-flakes and sugar-cloud candy and how to hurt people deep inside where they won't heal.
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Date: 2010-09-29 01:00 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-09-29 12:47 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-09-29 01:35 am (UTC)And of course I've no idea at all when the Earth Kingdom was unified and made to speak a single language, since it was probably a bunch of different ones for a very very long time. ^_^ So pretty much the difference between academic!Zuko and canon!zuko is all wrapped up in regional and linguistic differences in the A:TLA world and the things he learned/was taught before he got banished. Canon!Zuko, for instance, can probably compose some acceptable poems, but academic!Zuko would have learned enough classical court poetry to spot references to it in everyday speech. (Which could lead to all sorts of fun in Ba Sing Se, when he has a moment of thinking "oh, they're referencing that famous poem that compares alcohol to politics -- wait, no, crap. wrong language, wrong country. no, wait again, are they taking International Poetry at the university? Are they the kind of people who would make cross-language references about plotting against the government? Or is there an Earth Kingdom thing they're referencing here that I'm missing entirely? ARGH.")
So basically my writing of academic!Zuko is stalled by my ignorance of Asian literary traditions and linguistic differences, which are the kind of thing that I could easily spend the rest of my life researching.
And it would be AWESOME.And this is why I can't really answer your question, because if I knew enough to answer it completely I could start the damn thing. XDno subject
Date: 2010-09-29 04:16 pm (UTC)And now after reading your thoughts, it's inspired a tea-shop owner!Zuko AU idea that's been kicking around for a while. And that Mai/Ozai fic you linked over at DW certainly helped (it was lovely, thanks for sharing!). :D
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Date: 2010-09-29 05:10 pm (UTC). . . It wouldn't help if I told you that this was originally intended to be a fic about Zuko and Iroh continuing to run their tea-shop, would it. |D
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Date: 2010-09-30 02:32 am (UTC)(And now you're really making me regret not taking linguistics this semester. Oops. :/)
It wouldn't help if I told you that this was originally intended to be a fic about Zuko and Iroh continuing to run their tea-shop, would it.
No, but if it helps it plays out differently in my head. As in, when Iroh dies, Zuko inherits the business and becomes supremely good at the art of tea, surpassing Iroh's skills and even inventing some of his own types. And he pursues a relationship with the girl he met in "Tales of Ba Sing Se," and he has to deal with the political upheaval of the Fire Nation's invasion and eventual defeat (now that he's on the receiving end), and he has to deal with growing older in a world becoming more technologically advanced and like the steampunk-esque place in Legend of Korra, and he has an encounter or series of encounters with world-traveler!Kuei (because I have to throw him in somewhere) that finally convince him that yes, living a mundane life as the humble owner of the best tea shop in Ba Sing Se is okay, that giving up his destiny was his destiny so to speak, etc. And lots of angst, identity stuff, philosophy, Kuei's bear, and young whippersnappers causing a ruckus in Zuko's shop thrown in for good measure.
.......Compared to your idea, though, it's not nearly as awesome. IT'S LESS SAPPY AND OUT-IN-LEFT-FIELD IN MY HEAD, I ASSURE YOU. XD I think reading "Reign Within" had a lot to do with it, though. On the plus side, I get to research teas and teamaking, which is both infinitely easier and more delicious! 8D
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Date: 2010-09-30 08:59 am (UTC)Mmm, teas and tea-making! :D Your fic sounds a lot less ouch-my-brain-too-much-research than mine, and absolutely fabulous.
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Date: 2010-09-29 05:11 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-09-30 02:33 am (UTC)