it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing

[esmenet]

Now that I (technically) have time again, I am doing what I said I would and borrowing makeste's super-excellent meme!

1. My favorite character.
2. ANOTHER favorite character!!
3. My favorite character relationship, and by "relationship" I don't necessarily mean pairing and certainly not OTP, but on the other hand, depending on the fandom MAYBE I DO!
4. The moment/character/THING/WHATEVER that first hooked me on the fandom.
5. One of my favorite moments.
6. A song or track that reminds me of this fandom.
7. One miscellaneous awesome thing about the fandom.
8. One completely random thought I have regarding this fandom.
9. One fic/essay rec, fanart, or fanvid that depending on the fandom I either had lovingly bookmarked or saved onto my hard drive, or only just now found during a two-minute Google search.

Comments

[yifu]

Rurouni Kenshin.

[esmenet]

Wow, it's been a long time since I read this manga! (Maybe I should try reading it in Japanese.)

1. Tomoe! I love that she was a badass spy doing her job who began to have Feelings for her target—that's a role you usually see given to men, I think.

2. Megumi. (I just really like doctors, all right.)

3. Kenshin and Saitou. They're old enemies who really get each other in ways Kenshin's friends don't always, and they're both desperately determined to do the right thing. I really enjoy watching them disagree on the best way to go about getting it done.

4. I liked it pretty well from the start, but I think it was Sanosuke's background and his fight with Kenshin that really made me want to keep going. The difference between the ideals of the revolution and the actual events, especially with regards to Kenshin's role & decisions, interested me a lot.

5. Saitou leaving Kenshin that letter—well, Kenshin reading it. And, for some reason, the way 'Hajime' was written, with just a 一. (I am a total names-geek, what can I say.)

6. Someday I will hunt down the OST, but this is the only song I've actually heard from it.

7. The amount of genfic! About half the fic for this fandom seems to be long fluffydark Kenshin/Kaoru AUs, and the other half is genficcy stuff of varying lengths. It's not Natsume Yuujinchou or anything, but I can actually turn around without bumping into a ~*romance*~.

8. I am conflicted as to whether or not I should re-read. On the one hand, I might like Kaoru more this go-around! On the other, I might end up liking the overall work a lot less. (My tolerance for fight scenes has dropped immensely these past five years.)

9. One. Right.

Edge of the Blade, long slight AU older WIP about Saitou & Kenshin running around being awesome together.

Snowblind, older WIP wherein revolution-era Saitou and Kenshin get stuck out in the snow miles from anywhere.

Shadows in Starlight, wherein . . . well. Star Wars crossover, a little long but excellent. Complete.

[yifu]

she was a badass spy doing her job who began to have Feelings for her target—that's a role you usually see given to men, I think.

Hee, I never thought of it that way.
I like Tomoe too, for her practical attitude about the whole Kiyosato-dead-and-my-second-love-is-not situation. It must be painful at first and she managed it quite well.

The difference between the ideals of the revolution and the actual events, especially with regards to Kenshin's role & decisions, interested me a lot.

Kenshin's stance on the whole thing is what you'd expect in a story aimed at teens, but it can also be surprisingly mature at times.

[quadruplify]

Avatar. Because someone's gotta ask. XD

[dancing_serpent]

Dang. You got here first. *g*

[esmenet]

Here goes!

1. Azula! One of the reasons I like her so much is because she is strong where I am weak; she has the qualities I've always wanted, the traits I admire the most. But the things that make her strong are the same things that tear her down in the end; the things she thinks are important aren't enough unless backed by the things she ends up throwing away. She is one of those people who needs to be great; but she's also too young to handle the necessary parts of being great that she's not good at. At twenty, she might make a wonderful leader. At fourteen, she doesn't know how to take care of the boring bits that hold everything together. "Fear is the only reliable way," and all that; she might be a 'monster' now, but I think a large part of that is just because she's young.

I also love that she is never ever sexualized; she is just a REAL DANGEROUS LADY and scary as hell.

2. Does Ba Sing Se count as a character? Let's say it does, because I love love love cities. (Mai almost got this slot, but my feelings about her are COMPLICATED.)

3. Azula and Mai and Ty Lee. Their relationship is balanced on fear and obligation and need and anger, but somehow it works even though it gets awkward sometimes. I fully believe that Ty Lee has spent many hours teaching Azula about this strange thing called 'humour', and Azula has very kindly refused to actually set Mai on fire no matter how many orders she disobeys, up until the one time it wasn't something she could let go. And someday Azula will get out of whatever mental-hospital-prison Zuko put her in, and she will find something important she needs to do, and ask Mai and Ty Lee to come with her. And I do mean ask.

4. It was Vathara's Embers, actually. I rather wish it hadn't been, for various reasons, but it introduced me to Zuko and Iroh and Ba Sing Se and set me off on an Asian culture & history kick. And I think racebending also played a big part.

5. Azula & Zuko's Agni Kai is incredibly stunning, visuals- and music-wise. Although my actual favorite favorite moment may be Azula's DoBS fight, which I know I have mentioned to you several times before.


This is so long I actually need to break it into two comments!

[quadruplify]

But the things that make her strong are the same things that tear her down in the end; the things she thinks are important aren't enough unless backed by the things she ends up throwing away.

I agree, and this is probably the main reason why she's such a compelling character. Her ambition isn't in and of itself a bad thing, and the show reminds us of that -- but it's how and in what direction she uses it that eventually cause so much damage, both to herself and everyone around her.

I'm not so sure I agree, though, with your argument that she would've been better off had she been older. I can see where you're coming from -- that experience would expose her to important truths that would make her a great leader -- but I'm not entirely convinced that her youth is really the biggest thing holding her back. Sometimes, with the way our minds work, we're more inclined to reject facts, truths, or information that go against our worldviews and everything we've believed to be true up until that point, because we tend to view those things as threats to ourselves and our carefully-constructed identities rather than opportunities for self-improvement. And for some reason, I just don't see Azula being completely above that.

Also, age and wisdom don't always correlate, and her father's influence is not going to be that easy to shake. And then there's her mental health -- obviously it's fucked up to assume that the mentally ill always make for bad, tyrannical leaders, but it doesn't make things any easier either. I can see adult!Azula being more of a Gordon Gekko-like character -- someone who knows the difference between right and wrong but rejects it out of convenience, someone who only uses her experience and "wisdom" to know the right things to say at any given time, the easiest and most efficient ways to manipulate people, the best ways to fake compassion and understanding without actually having to do those things.

Also, I'd be interested to hear your complicated thoughts on Mai. Because I might just feel the same way about her. ^_^;

[esmenet]

Mmm, I don't think she would ever be 'nice' in the Aang-and-Katara-and-Zuko sense. I'm not sure she'll ever do something just because it helps people; but she might do it because she needs them to like her. She wouldn't end the war because it was wrong, but I think she would absolutely end it if she thought it was hurting the Fire Nation more than making it great.

I agree with you that she might never be able to understand how other people's brains work, especially since she's used to just finding a spot and pushing till it breaks. But if she can fake feeling the 'right' way, and keep on faking it, I don't know if there's anything really wrong with that. Scary, sure.

(actually my feelings on Azula are just as complicated and difficult to articulate as my feelings on Mai, they're just a bit less close to home)

I don't think being Zuko's age or so would have helped her any, actually. Being Lu Ten's age and going out to serve as an officer in the army might have. —Then again, when they weren't so hard up for soldiers they might have tried to raise her to be more like Ursa, who I'm convinced is nice and motherly and sweet only because she doesn't need to be scary, but her kids don't know that. And I think Azula absolutely hated being pushed into the 'girl' box when she was younger. What does her nice sweet uncle send her wimp of a brother? A knife that says 'never give up'. What does he send her? A fucking doll to play house with. And her mother tells her not to be angry about it (or at least not show that she's angry). She doesn't have a nice badass understanding aunt to bond with; Ozai is the only person of power in her life who tells her it's okay to set shit on fire when you're angry.

So I think that's a lot of why Azula seems to have completely put aside things like 'nice' and 'understanding'. Because back then, to believe in those things would have been letting go of her real self in favor of the nice sweet princess (it seemed like) everyone but her father was trying to make her.

If she was older she might have gotten the chance to talk with someone who understood that being angry and fierce and strong didn't mean throwing away things like compassion and understanding, maybe especially if she'd gotten the chance to go out and fight in the war instead of just tracking down Zuko & Aang.

SO THAT IS MY COUNTER-ARGUMENT, I guess. And I do hope you get the time to read at least 水火, because that is the one fic that kind of totally changed my view of Azula.

[quadruplify]

I'm sorry if I implied that Azula could possibly be "nice" in that way, or that she'd develop what we'd consider good intentions, because I didn't mean to come across that way. I think I was trying to allude more to what you said, about doing what she can to get people to like her and protect the Fire Nation instead of using the more forceful tactics we see her use in the series. You don't have to be "nice" to do what you think is the right thing, but you do have to have some sense of decency and empathy in order to achieve your goals and make your tactics in achieving them work. And I was questioning how capable she is in gaining that sense -- I'm not saying she flat-out can't, but that she might not be able to to the extent that I think you're implying.

But if she can fake feeling the 'right' way, and keep on faking it, I don't know if there's anything really wrong with that.

Because in the end, it doesn't matter if your intentions were pure or not, as long as some "good" was done, right? IDK, on one hand I totally get where you're coming from, but on the other hand I think this can get into some potentially dangerous territory -- it can be twisted into an "ends justify the means" argument, and a what point do the means stop being justifiable? (Of course, part of it too comes from my personal issues with people "faking it," so there's that too. :P)

You're absolutely right about Azula abandoning a lot of the qualities that would've made her a great leader because she saw those things as weaknesses and as qualities that she felt were being imposed on her -- that makes a lot of sense, when you think about it. Especially when she comes to emulate a lot of Ozai's behavior because, as you said, he's the only one in her life who enables her in some way.

Sorry if my thoughts are all over the place, as I haven't been entirely "with it" today. ^_^; A lot of what you said makes sense, but I just don't have as much faith that she would've been able to learn the importance of things like compassion and understanding so that she wouldn't be the "monster" we see in the series, or that the circumstances would've allowed it so that she could learn those things and become much stronger and more powerful (given that the Fire Nation had been subject to propaganda and a Fire Lord-centric personality cult for at least a century, which would make it really difficult, though certainly not impossible).

[esmenet]

I actually thought you might be thinking that I thought that! (Yay for convoluted sentences.) I do think she has some decency, empathy, etc., but she's been choosing not to exercise them for a very, very long time and sort of bypassed that part of her brain; the 'compassionate' pathways of thought are possible, but it would be really hard for her to start using them.

I think she needs to sit down with Mai and Ty Lee and have a big long talk about love, and betrayal, and people's reasons in general for doing things. Because Azula's brain is a scary and complex place, and I don't think she has any experience with connecting other people's reasons and behaviors to her own.

Or something like that. My feelings & thoughts on this are COMPLICATED. I kind of want to say that Azula's not exactly so much 'wrong' or 'a bad person' as she is just different, her brain works on different tracks from those of people like Zuko or Iroh and if she wants to be able to get along in contexts that aren't like the ones of her childhood she's going to have to reroute some of them.

And that is kind of what I mean by 'faking it', because just sitting around and thinking about all that wouldn't magically reconnect those parts of her brain that she's been not using for so long. But following along with the way other people act and thinking why would someone do this? why would I do this? might, and I think she would have to actually go through with something without really feeling it at least once.

On the other side of 'faking it', though, I think if Azula really couldn't make herself feel that stuff then it wouldn't be wrong for her to set some limits and act within them. Even if she doesn't get why it's wrong to tell crying people to shut the hell up, she could get that there is some reason everyone else doesn't.

I actually have some rather strange feelings on people 'faking it'. On the one hand I do think honesty is the most important thing, and on the other hand I have spent many many hours forcing myself to cry quietly instead of shout and rage, because one is more acceptable for girls and also doesn't result in physical violence towards other people. Maybe that doesn't count, I don't know. But I do think Azula could force things to re-route in her head, even if just making 'rage' direct to 'stand very still and not change expression at all'. Damage control is better than no control.

And this kind of leads into my thoughts about Mai, as well, because I think Mai spent a lot of time forcing herself into a little box of 'acceptable'. Or, well, maybe not forcing so much as folding herself up, tucking all the nasty things away inside herself where no one will ever see them. If she used to get very angry or very sad, she doesn't anymore, because she learned how to fake being bored and then she managed to make that real. In some ways she is what Azula was scared of becoming, all the bright fire of her self locked up inside where even she has trouble getting to it most of the time. It's not necessarily a bad thing; it's what I have been unable to do.

At some point tomorrow-ish I will come back to this and talk more about Azula and 'monster'-ness, but right now my brain is kind of not working anymore. I am really enjoying this discussion, though!

part two!

[esmenet]

6. Someone made an absolute fabulous vid to part of California Gurls using footage from "The Beach". I haven't been able to find it in a while, sadly.

7. Despite all the things I've heard about A:TLA being the wankiest fandom since Harry Potter, I've never actually talked with an A:TLA fan who was anything but awesome. This may be due to self-selection & limited participation, small pool of DW/AO3 fans, etc., but everyone I've met through A:TLA has been lovely. They (you) all seem to care a lot about cultural accuracy, characterization, and the worldbuilding of our lovely canon. I love you all, but I suppose you know that.

8. The Fire Nation absolutely has a Secret Hidden Library and I refuse to believe otherwise.

9. 水火 is and will probably always be one of if not my absolute favourite Avatar fic. I'm pretty sure it's one of the major reasons why I love Azula as much as I do.

And since I really can't do just one: Control and Other Illusions, post-canon Azula with bits of Mai and Ty Lee; Grandfather and daughter, Ursa and Azulon; and To honour the moment, Zuko and TERRIFYING THINGS and the possibility that peace will be had given some time. (I am not kidding about the terrifying things. 'Creepy as fuck' is a mild description. It's glorious.)

Re: part two!

[quadruplify]

My (admittedly little) experience with A:tLA fandom has been positive too; I have seen some people get unfairly dogpiled on because they said they didn't care for it too much, but other than that I haven't seen much in the way of extreme wank lately. If anything, the fandom's bad reputation has made the people in it very savvy on how to stop wank and shipwars before they start. ^_^;

Thanks for the fic recs! All of them sound interesting, and I hope I can make the time to read them soon.

[salinea]

Utena!

[esmenet]

1. Anthy! Anthy Anthy Anthy. At first I had no opinion on her at all, and then the Black Rose Arc happened and I was like whoa this is creepy, I like it and then the end just made me really, really happy for her. Her life has been an uncomfortable complicated tangle of love and hatred and obligation and pain for so long, and if you can't be a princess you have to be a witch and all girls are like the Rose Bride, and then she realizes that she can leave. She realizes it's okay to leave her brother alone with his schemes, and it's all right to go and look for happiness on her own.

I think I really started liking her after the movie, though. Even though the movie timeline is super compressed and most of the details are different, you get things like Anthy being the coolest racecar driver ever and friendship actually saving the day.

2. Nanami. She's meant to be a parallel to Anthy, in her relationship with her older brother and maybe in other ways as well. But she realizes early on, I think, that Ohtori is a bastion of weirdness and messed-up relationships and creepy background music. And in the end, like Anthy, she wants to get out. But unlike Anthy, she ends up preserving her relationship with her brother, even if it has rather different undertones than it did at the beginning. And I think Anthy was trying, in part, to help her with that. (I also think Anthy kind of hated her, in the way you hate younger versions of yourself who are making the same stupid mistakes.)

3. Goodness, there are so many! Mikage and Utena, I think. This is another case of parallels, except it's Utena who hates Mikage; he manipulates people into hurting others in an attempt to get something he thinks he wants, that's basically all he does, and Utena calls him a monster. Actually, she calls him right out on his shit and punches him, which I think was a good life decision for her. I would have liked to see them interact more, especially in the context of the whole prince/princess/witch framework and outside the duels. He would know just what to say to get to her, and she would always be able to call him out on his manipulative and harmful shit.

4. The MUSIC. I actually heard Shiori's duel song first, I think, and then I went and downloaded all the soundtracks, and then I started watching the show. I need to start listening to those soundtracks more often again.

5. The 'Tale of the Rose' play. I love that they sit you down and explain everything in such a metafiction format, and that by then you know exactly what they are explaining, and that it still doesn't tell you how everything is going to go. And the play itself is pretty fabulous too.

6. Isagiyuku, kakkoyoku, ikite yukou~ But for songs not from the soundtracks, Poe's Hey Pretty takes the cake, purely because of this video.

7. So much postmodernist meta! In everything. It's beautiful.

8. Needs more Gokusen crossovers.

9. Stage Props, about Nanami and her thoughts on Ohtori.

I also kind of want to mention my own fic, history of the rose, because that was me trying to do the Postmodern Meta Thing that I love so much.

[salinea]

♥ I AGREE SO MUCH WITH EVERYTHING IN THIS

[genarti]

Since somebody already asked about Utena: Fullmetal Alchemist?

[littlebutfierce]

... do you even have to guess which one I am asking about? :D