late-night ramblings which may or may not actually make sense

[esmenet]

I love, I adore the idea of plot without conflict. You don't have to fight all the time! It's okay! You can just hang out and do stuff and everything will be fabulous, nobody has to worry about winning or losing or anything like that. There doesn't have to be any kind of epic struggle, or any struggle at all. Not in the pure one thing vs. something else sense. Like, idk, most of Natsume Yuujinchou. It's most emphatically not any sort of battle manga, of course, but most importantly it's really just a story about people learning to deal with the world and each other. Which is another of my favorite kinds of stories, because I feel like in some ways that's the big meta-narrative, the Real Story of everyone's lives. Good vs. Evil is untrue and overplayed; it's the story everyone wants to think is true, so they can feel all validated that they're right and good and amazing and someone else is bad and evil and wrong. Or even that right and good don't mean all that much compared to that one thing that's important to you, fuck everybody else.

But that kind of story, I feel, is not the kind that actually needs to be told. The story of people growing and changing and just learning how to deal with the world and the people around them, though, is not just a good story it is THE story. Because that is the essence of people's lives. Everybody has to deal with learning how to interact with people, finding out the difference between what they think and what actually is. Everybody has to deal with, well, life. And I'm pretty sure that's a hell of a lot more important than a bunch of dudes fighting each other because somebody just felt like destroying the world.

(In summary: fuck Supernatural, seriously, that show is like the perfect example of everything that is wrong with the currently popular style of Western storytelling.)

(and also Natsume Yuujinchou and Azumanga Daioh are fucking amazing, okay, and so is Ashita no Ousama.)

(and also also: Gokusen, despite being primarily about Yankumi beating people up, is surprisingly non-conflict-oriented in its main plot. the main plot is: Yankumi teaches students and bonds with them and they become close and help each other and also Shin has a giant crush on her.)

Comments

[yifu]

I quit SPN after it's clear the story is only interested in dudeangst.

Conflicts as garnish rather than the main course is perfectly a-okay with me. My brain has been conditioned by too many shounen and wuxia series to apply this full-time to my own writing, but there's always character pieces.

[esmenet]

I quit SPN after it's clear the story is only interested in dudeangst.

I (luckily) knew that it was all dudeangst and manpain from the beginning, so I managed to stay away from the show, but accidentally got sucked into the fandom by stuff like that awesome racebending comic. So I know just enough about the show to hate it with a vengeance.

I love shounen (most of the time) and I think I'm going to love wuxia, but I just cannot successfully write about people fighting. I can't do it. I always just want them to hang out, and maybe garden or something. It's a thing.

[ishime]

I just can't imagine a plot without conflict that could actually be interesting. The example in the page you link is good to give an idea of how it works, but it doesn't really make a case for interest... Do you have more examples of it?
Your argument of "it's the Real Story" sounds a bit strange to me because, well, no - it's fiction. What is the point of fiction if it's the story of real life?
(Not quite sure I agree on real life not being about conflict, either, but I guess that part is a matter of temper and point of view...)

Also, Natsume Yuujinchou, not about conflict? Isn't the basic plot of this series Natsume's struggle against all the demons who want to take the book from him?

And why do you assume that conflict = Good vs Evil, with capitals and everything? I guess that it's rare to find a story without a side being more right than the other, but... I thought that writing a good conflict was writing a conflict in which both sides' point of view are expressed and make sense, even if you pick one as your favorite / the winner? Like, isn't that what makes a good tragedy, for instance?

(Though I agree that Supernatural is generally terrible at writing good conflicts - the only antagonists whose point of view was understandable and sort of sympathetic were the angels.)

[esmenet]

Haha, everything in this post is super jumbled because I was writing it to myself as an excuse for staying up late. My apologies! By 'the Real Story' I mean . . . not necessarily the only story, but I think it's the one most directly applicable to people's lives. Because that's all it is, really. Stories without conflict -- or, better put, stories that aren't about fighting -- tend to be about people learning how to live with themselves and the world. And, yeah, fiction shouldn't be just like real life, otherwise what's the point, but I think it's really important to have many iterations of that one kind of story. Because it was a bit of a revelation for me, as a kid, that there could be satisfying stories about people just living in their houses, going to school, hanging out with their friends, and not engaging in some epic struggle.

I think I'm using the wrong term, here, really. Conflict in a 'this ideal conflicts with that ideal' sense is just fine in any story, but in this post I meant 'conflict' more in the sense of actual fighting -- not necessarily good vs. evil, though that's often the way it goes, but one side vs. another, they fight. And I feel like Good vs. Evil or Morally Ambiguous Side vs. Even More Morally Ambiguous Side is a story that's a lot more popular than it ought to be. I guess I'm just really tired of stories about people fighting.

And I want to make a distinction between stories that are about people fighting and stories that contain people fighting. e.g. Ranma 1/2 is about Ranma & co.'s relationships to each other, though it contains an almost ridiculous amount of fighting.

Ah, see, that is the main plot of Natsume Yuujinchou if it were shounen. The basic idea of the Book of Friends would make a great basis for a battle manga. But even though Natsume gets chased for the Book of Friends sometimes, and even though one of the newer characters, Matoba, is a straight-up villain, the main plot of the series is about Natsume learning how to be friends with people, both human and youkai. & you can tell this pretty clearly, because all the big shiny moments at the end of pivotal chapters are about friendship and not battle.

[ishime]

Hmm, I think I see your point with Natsume Yuujinchou. I guess I put more emphasis on the "struggle for the book of friends" part in my mind because I only like conflict-based stories. I don't know if it's because I read for escapism or because I'm a conflict-driven person, but the sort of stories you describe (everyday life, about people's relations to one another) usually bores me to death.

Also, ironically, I agree with your criticism of certain types of conflict in stories.
Another thing that might be very Western, monotheistic-based is the idea that a conflict only has two sides - which leads to the idea that there are only two possible answers to a question/problem. (Like a closed question - you can only answer yes or no).
I guess with more than two sides you might end up with only two after people have made compromises and allied themselves with the point of views closest to them, but... It's always more interesting to have more point of views. Even if it's only one good side and different sorts of evil - though I'd prefer different good sides, or different neutral sides. I don't know, it makes a story less likely to be Manichean (the good old Good vs Evil) in my mind. Also, it gives me the feeling that the question is more complex (though that can be achieved with only two sides as well, provided the narration shows that it's not one side being right all along and another being wrong all along - like, the narration becomes a third point of view, sortof).

[aldanise]

I'm not sure the conflict that writing advice demands and the conflict that you and the linked post are describing are the same thing? For example, while I haven't seen Natsume Yuujinchou or Ashita no Ousama, both Azumanga Daioh and Gokusen both rely pretty heavily on what my high school writing teachers would call interpersonal conflict: Yankumi clashes with her students, for example, and she comes out of it with a better understanding of their lives and they come out of it with an increased respect for teachers/education.

Because, honestly, conflict as defined by one side winning? Stories that avoid that are not rare, particularly in modern Western litfic. Out of stuff that I actually, well, like, Gabriel Garcia Marquez's Hundred Years of Solitude traces a family over a hundred years, and there's certainly what I would define as conflict, but no single side triumphing, etc. It's people living their lives. Or Jhumpa Lahiri's stories, many of which are built around the tension amongst different generations of immigrants, birth country, and new country, but gain their power specifically through not resolving those tensions.

And then you can take the other side: Noh drama is frequently described as a particularly conflictless storytelling form, in that it's basically what the author called kishōtenketsu in two acts: act one is the priest/waki coming to a place and learning its story (intro + development), act two is the twist that the storyteller is actually the main figure of the story (shite) bound to this earth, whom the waki then sets free (twist + reconciliation). Nonetheless, Noh plays are full of conflict, with the shite agonizing over their past (often full of fighting or love-anguish) and the waki persuading/forcing the shite to relinquish that. Conflict.

Fantasy and Science Fiction (particularly epic fantasy and space opera), as genres, have a particularly powerful history of life-or-death conflicts at the center of their stories, I think. And, yes, the Epic Struggle of Good vs Evil can lead to lazy writing. But the beauty and grandeur and wonder of Tolkien, for example, is not in Sauron vs. the white city of Gondor or Sauron vs. the innocent hobbits. Instead, it's in Frodo's long struggle and ultimate inability to give up power and go back to the way he was, or Denethor's love for his city, so great that he loses sight of his family, his ethics, and his wisdom. tldr; One of the most important aspects of a Good vs. Evil story in which one side must triumph is precisely how to navigate not being always right and good and amazing when you've still got shit to do. (Which, um. I haven't heard good things about Supernatural's recent ability to do, yes.)

Anyway, yeah. Long comment is long, but this managed to punch the button I developed growing up in a litfic family while loving fantasy: I have been told all my life that examining human relationships in a realistic way is a more valid type of story than the unrealism of Good vs. Evil. It's not fair to compare the good of one to the lazy writing of the other.

[esmenet]

Long comment is super welcome! Yeah, it's really not fair and I know it's not fair. I'm conflating 'things that make good stories' with 'things that hit my personal buttons' here, a bit. But also I don't mean 'no conflict, ever', when I say 'stories without conflict' (which in retrospect is some rather bad wording); I'm talking more about, oh, action plot vs. emotional plot I suppose. Violence vs. arguing. Or, well. I'm just really tired of stories which are just about people fighting, and sometimes I prefer even rather terrible plotless shoujo manga to epic stories of struggle. (See: one of the reasons I continue to watch Creamy Mami and still haven't picked Legend of the Galactic Heroes back up.)

I think by 'conflict' here I mean not one side winning but two sides fighting.

One of the most important aspects of a Good vs. Evil story in which one side must triumph is precisely how to navigate not being always right and good and amazing when you've still got shit to do. (Which, um. I haven't heard good things about Supernatural's recent ability to do, yes.)

Yes! I feel like a lot of those stories fall down on the job concerning that, which is fine and normal because Sturgeon's Law &c., but a lot of the time they do it in ways that remind me very strongly that the hero is a white straight cis dude, and that really bothers me. (Also I think Supernatural had one angel kill off all the non-Christian gods? Which, um. Yeah. --I may have kind of a vendetta against that show and its handling of everything. Which is probably strange for someone who has not actually watched the show in question, but whatever.)


--so basically, to summarize: I only kind of know what I'm trying to talk about here, but I am super tired of reading/watching things where the main plot is 'they fight'.

Thank you for the recs! They sound really up my alley. (Also, you would probably enjoy Natsume Yuujinchou.)

[aldanise]

Interesting! I tend to avoid stories that focus purely on relationship-navigating, because I'd rather read about/watch people who have jobs that have to get done, who then have to figure out how to fit in learning how to interact with each other and build relationships around the edges of doing the things they absolutely have to do. Which is one of the best things about fanfiction, since so many canons are the more action-adventury types, we explore the relationship-navigation of people who are defined by their jobs: how does Emily Prentiss handle friendship, or Alec Hardison romance, or Barbara Gordon mentoring? I would be a lot less interested in all of those if I didn't know that Emily would rather profile criminals that talk to her mother and is damn good at the former, etc.

(Oh, Supernatural. I mostly classify it as Biblical fanfiction whose creators didn't bother to listen to any discussions about anti-discrimination activism or the interplay between culture and storytelling, and remind myself that it is still less rage-inducing than Left Behind, which I spent a year of middle-school turning down when friends pimped it to me. Have you ever seen the issue of Wonder Woman where Cronos + co. destroy every pantheon, specifically including Hindu and ancient Greek, as preparation for storming Christian Heaven? Diana and Rama defeat them and restore everyone's powers, but all I could think was that if you're planning to do obnoxious pantheon-ranking like that, at least have the courtesy not to use the pantheon of one of the largest religions of the modern world. Or better yet, come up with a rationale that doesn't involve specific and offensive power relations. *sigh*)

Honestly, I think most crappy writing tends to thwap you over the head with the white, straight, cis-maleness of the protagonist. I mean, different genres can alleviate certain parts of that (romance novels: more women; c/j/k/twdramas: more East Asian people), but unreflective writing pretty much reflects the existing social structure ad-nauseum. Of course, Dwayne McDuffie (excellent black comic-book writer) points out that superhero comics are very much a white man's power fantasy (starting 2:51 in the clip), so stories influenced by superhero culture are more likely to fall into the white, straight, cis dude trap, probably. I think you're right that a lot of "fight for huge stakes"-type stories are in that category.

So, are you looking for more stories, period, where the plot is something other than "they fight", or more fantasy stories of that type? Because if it's the former, a progressive English or literature teacher/professor could probably give you a huge list of recommendations and be very enthusiastic about it from my experiences with the type. :-) If it's the latter, I highly, highly recommend Latin American magical realism in general, Gabriel Garcia Marquez and Isabel Allende in particular.

[aldanise]

(Oh, and, yes, I bet I would like Natsume Yuujinchou. It's on the scary-long to-watch list. :D)